Copyright: 1996 - 2024
BSEE - KB3UON
RF Cafe began life in 1996 as "RF Tools" in an AOL screen name web space totaling
2 MB. Its primary purpose was to provide me with ready access to commonly needed
formulas and reference material while performing my work as an RF system and circuit
design engineer. The World Wide Web (Internet) was largely an unknown entity at
the time and bandwidth was a scarce commodity. Dial-up modems blazed along at 14.4 kbps
while tying up your telephone line, and a nice lady's voice announced "You've Got
Mail" when a new message arrived...
All trademarks, copyrights, patents, and other rights of ownership to images
and text used on the RF Cafe website are hereby acknowledged.
My Hobby Website:
Signal termination - RF Cafe Forums
RF Cafe Forums closed its virtual doors in 2012 mainly due to other social media
platforms dominating public commenting venues. RF Cafe Forums began sometime around
August of 2003 and was quite well-attended for many years. By 2010, Facebook and
Twitter were overwhelmingly dominating online personal interaction, and RF Cafe
Forums activity dropped off precipitously. If the folks at
phpBB would release a version with integrated
sign-in from the major social media platforms, I would resurrect the RF Cafe Forums,
but until then it is probably not worth the effort. Regardless, there are still
lots of great posts in the archive that ware worth looking at.
Below are the old forum threads, including responses to the original posts.
|-- Amateur Radio
Gripes & Humor
-- CAE, CAD, &
Test & Measurement
Post subject: Signal termination Posted: Tue Nov 15,
2005 8:22 pm
I have a few questions about signal termination-
1) At what frequency is termination required.
2) what effects
would you see if the output signal is not terminated by a 50ohm impedance?
3) If you are measuring the output signal of an op amp at F=6Mhz, how
should I terminate the signal. I am measuring the output on a digital
Post subject: Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:09 pm
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 2:02 pm
In answer to your questions:
1) A properly matched termination is required whenever you want
maximum power transfer from the source to the load - regardless of frequency.
2) If any source does not "see" its complex conjugate impedance,
part of the incident power is reflected back to the load. The result
is standing waves on the transmission line, and less than maximum efficiency.
In worst case conditions, the amplitude of the standing wave(s) can
exceed the voltage breakdown level of the line and/or source driver
and result in a catastrophic failure.
3) A rule of thumb is that
standing waves become a design concern when the transmission path between
the source and load is greater than about 1/10 of a wavelength. The
wavelength of 6 MHz in air is 1,976 inches, and on a typical substrate
or in coax cable would be around 1,100 inches, so 1/10 wavelength would
be about 200 inches and 110 inches, respectively. If the separation
between your source and load is less than those values, then standing
waves are of no real concern. At 6 MHz, you are most likely targeting
a specific voltage or current to a load and not maximum power transfer,
and would choose a load impedance to achieve your goal if the source/load
distance is less than 1/10 wavelength. So, if you are designing a PCB
at 6 MHz, use any load value that gives you the magnitude & I/V
phase relationship that works. If the 6 MHz will be driven down a long
cable, definitely match source & load impedances to minimize reflections,
then impedance transform and amplify at the load as(if) required.
- Kirt Blattenberger
RF Cafe Progenitor &
Post subject: Posted:
Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:57 pm
Kirt, thank you very much.
I asked is because my phase shifter is not working properly @ 6MHz.
It works fine at in the KHz range. It works 'okay' at 1 or 2MHz.
The ckt is an active all-pass filter. Look at fig. 1 here - http://www.maxim-ic.com.cn/appnotes.cfm
R1 is a 10k pot and R is 1k and C is 150pF.
At 6 Mhz and above, the output amplitude is higher than the input.
As I increase the phase difference, both the input and output amplitude
decrease and increase gradually by a small amount.
The op amp
I am using is LM7171 (200MHz).
Input and ouput are terminated
by 50ohm resistors.
Any idea why its acting this way?
Thanks in advance.
Termination?Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:10 pm
It's not the termination
that's causing trouble, but the phase response of the opamp and the
output impedance as a function of frequency.
Have you tried National's
"Webench" simulations on your circuit?
Post subject: Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:28
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:29 pm
Your making assumptions of a 50 ohm system. This could be some
of your trouble. As the 1771 has a very Hi input Z and a almost 0 output.
Actually 15 ohms according to the data sheet. All the test data for
the 1771 uses 100 ohm or 1kohm loads. Perhaps you might consider that.
Post subject: Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005
Also, make sure your oscilloscope probes are high impedance,
so as not to change the load the circuit sees (significantly) when measuring